Welcome to The Pillars of Purpose podcast with your host, PJ Crescenzo. This is The show where every week we have real conversations about what it looks like to improve our faith, our family, our fitness, our finances, and ultimately have a life of fun. If you're looking to build on pillars that last and you're looking to have a life of purpose, this is The show for you. Thanks for tuning in and look forward to today's episode. Welcome to The Pillars of Purpose podcast. I am super excited and grateful today to have an amazing man, mentor, leader, Ralph DiBugnara on The show. Ralph was one of The first leaders I've ever worked for in The mortgage industry. He's a divisional leader at one of The fastest growing divisions of a top five independent mortgage bank and recently ranked by Forbes, actually The number one independent mortgage bank, New American Funding. He's got an incredible presence on social media. He's an investor. He has a portfolio of short-term rentals, and he has an incredible time in his half marathon. So, Ralph DiVignaro, welcome to That was a good introduction. We could stop it There, I think. I think people got Yeah. 45 seconds in, just listen, and Then run it out. All right, so bro, I'm super grateful to have you on. You've been an incredible positive influence when I started my career and somebody that I've looked up to from The sideline. So I'm just going to start ripping. We're going to see how many of These questions we can get through. We'll go rapid fire because it's The only way we know how to do it. Sounds good, man. All right. So first question, which I actually don't I was a loan officer in 2001. I came into The business. You didn't need a license Then. So I came in, I came in as a loan officer. I did like a training program for like a month and They just put me on The phones, which was, you know, calling The phone book and everything else. But I was a loan officer for like The first, Few years of my career and I had no idea what I was doing, but There was an abundance of business at The time. So it was easy kind of to get up and going. It's a little bit hard now to start. It was easy to start There. Well, it was just like hard work and being willing to When was The first time you knew you were eiTher a mortgage guy I think, I think my first month, well, I thought, I think my first month, I thought I was going to be, so I think my first month, like my first, like two months, I put in like 15 deals. I was like, I said, I'm going to be rich. I found my quality. I will tell you that 85% of those deals died because I didn't know what I was doing. I probably out of The 15 are probably only close to, but I kind of realized it was a business that if I just, Work The hours and put time in that i can be successful at it so when i figure out it was just really based around hard work i thought i thought at that point is a guy i can do i can definitely do this. I'll just be a saturdays i'll be a sunday's i'll work at eight o'clock at night it kind of fit my profile which was i was always going to work if There was money involved so i think that when i realize i could be Do you think that same framework applies today to a brand new So I had this conversation recently with my faTher who's 75 now and still has two jobs. He still teaches. Um, and you know, he doesn't need to anymore. He's got a pension and everything else. But like The conversation I had with him last weekend, which is, it kind of plays into this. He said The one skill, and that's someone who's got a doctorate and everything else. The one skill that I realized that has played over The years. And I was just talking to a very close friend about this is hard work. So I think that even if you're not, you're not smart, you're not dynamic, you're not The most socially, you know, in that person, you're supposed socially, if you work hard, you will find The level of success that everybody's level of success may be different. But I think if you work hard 1000% in this business, you can still you can still make a lot of money and do very, very well. How do you coach somebody in your organization when They don't have a work ethic? It's hard for me, because I think, as you just said, I didn't do good in school. I was not a good student. I did not think I had a place in The world where I could be successful, if I'm being completely honest with you. I had no idea what I was going to do out of college. And I've really made all of my success out of working hard and Then building a skill set and a craft, because I worked hard. But it's very hard for me to coach somebody that isn't willing to work. But I will tell you this. I think you have to find a place for that person where Um, They find some success and They find some positive reinforcement and They find some, um, you Once They can start to get a taste of a win, it could unlock The You said it better than I did. You got to get Them some small wins. I think if you get some people, some small wins, They'll find a way They want to work harder to, to, you know, it becomes dopamine, right? It That's great feedback. All right, so slight transition, but Then going back into The same topic with anoTher 10 questions. When did you meet I met Frank in 2007 at The end of The world, The mortgage crash. We met during The mortgage crash. He was working at a company called refinance.com. I was trolling around The world trying to find... I had been a senior vice president at Deutsche Bank at The time and They closed The mortgage division. So I was I was roaming around The world trying to find anoTher senior vice president job and nobody wanted to hire me. So Frankie's company hired me to be a loan officer. So was it hard? So this is actually twofold questions. I'm going to go to Frankie and Then I'll give Frankie a proper intro, even though he's not on The show. Transitioning from LO to leader, what was The toughest thing about that transition? And Then what was The toughest thing about transitioning from leader back Being broke will humble you quick. So I had to humble myself very, very quick. So it got to The point where There was no more money and There was no more options to get any money, except The only skillset I knew at The point, which was selling loans. So it was tough, bro. I have a really funny story that My first week at this job, I was really broke. I was living with my girlfriend at The time, who's now my wife, and we were living in a rent-controlled apartment in The city, and I needed a haircut. I didn't even have money to get a haircut at that point because I was really broke. And so I had her cut my hair. I was like, just shave my head, but just do it in a reasonable way. And she left The clip off The thing, and she shaved me bald, like skin fade bald, like skin. So The first day of work in The dead of winter, I showed up broke, not wanting to be There and not wanting to be alone. I'm saying, you know, times never, you know, most of The times I go through in life right now, I never feel as tough as that was, but it was a real growing period for me because now it's 2007 to 2007. Yeah. It's 2007. So yeah, I just, it was, it was a learning lesson that, uh, it could all go away very quick. And I think for The next 10 years I worked away, like it was going to be taken away from me. Have you That was The last time, thank God. A lot of people won't know this, and I don't even think you can articulate it without experiencing it, but The culture that you guys have built is one of The best cultures I've ever been exposed to in any corporate setting. So There's two questions. One is how much of The culture is intentional? How much of it is organic? So I'll start with that and Then I'll ask The next question. So how much of The culture that you guys have built is intentional versus organic? And if you want to shed light on what type of culture you have from your perspective, you Yeah i think i think what speaks to it is that most of The people that are with us have been with us twenty years plus you know that i met frank which is two thousand. They didn't want with one of us like five people who would be since my first day in The business and so it's a right so i think i'm in The business for twenty five years. So you know so so that is first right i think me and frank are both in in different ways very service based leaders. Where we can try to leave from The front where is both very very hard workers were both understand that that are. Employees are our family and our clients at The same time. So I think we treat it like that, right? Like They're Their clients and They're also family. And I think The culture that we've created because of that is a very loyal, we'll follow you anywhere culture. And you know, kind of what we went through last year, we had a year and a half ago, we had to move The whole company from one place to anoTher, like overnight. And we lost very few people in that transition. How many employees was that total that had to move? So over a hundred. It was over 100 people that we had to move in like a month. And for The first two weeks of that month, me and Frank had no idea where we were going. So that was crazy, but it just kind of shows that people trust us, and They believe in us. And it's reciprocal, just The same for Them. I don't think about The things that The people that That's incredible. So you gave some of The takeaways There, servant leadership, treat employees as family. I'll ask it just one more time to capture a nugget, mortgage or non, if you're a leader and you're trying to build a business where you have a culture where people are willing to follow you and you want to build longevity, what's just kind of a final takeaway or nugget you'd share with anybody that's in a leadership position that's trying to build that sticky culture? What are some non-negotiables of things that They need to do leading from The I think be auThentic. What you preach is something you should be doing every single day. Be auThentic to who you really are i try to walk into every room with myself i don't have to put on an act i don't have to put on a show but i auThentically am working every single day and i'm available every single day so if i'm asking you to do something i have to do it myself all of it right so i think whatever i'm asking of anybody that works for us i'm a thousand percent willing to do myself. And just rolling up your sleeves, There's no job too big or too small ever. And I think if you talk to The best leaders in The world, There's an Elon Musk story that I'll just tell quick when he took over Twitter. It's in his book. He he wanted Them to reduce The amount of servers that They had it was eating a ton of money we don't need all The servers we just need one. And The engineer came in There like you may be right but it's gonna take us eight months to kind of break that down is like no it's not him and his cousin i think went to home depot and i got tools. and They went and They took apart two of Them Themselves. Anyway, this is The guy who is The richest guy in The world. For The right leaders, I don't think any That's so good. All right. So I love that. Cause that, that really is The description and definition of servant leadership, being willing to do what, what you're asking your team to do. Okay. So transition to now The team, right? Cause you've got a team of people, you're ranking a squad. Do you guys have any non-negotiables or like rhythms on an annual or quarterly things that you're like, yo, we got to always at least do blank to keep this engine I just think in general, for my purposes, I don't want finger pointing at any time. I just want solutions. Mistakes happen. I'll be quick to step up and take blame, and I think Frank will too, but I think what are The solutions to get to The problem? And just a positive overall mindset to get things done. And my one non-negotiable, I will give you a non-negotiable. My one non-negotiable is not being responsive to anything, right? As long as you're responsive and you communicate, hey, I'm working on this, or hey, this is gonna take longer than I thought, or this may take two weeks and not a day. But as long as you're communicating fast that you understand what The issue is and it's being worked on, If I get- Honestly, working with you guys and being a part of multiple organizations, I will say that is one thing that your group does better than anybody, is everybody responds quick. like Yeah, bro. I really feel like responsiveness is The key to success. I mean, you know, as you're a successful loan officer at this point, right? You're a successful salesperson. Like, you know, people probably say to you, well, I know PJ is going to respond quick. Like, you know, like no, no news is always bad news. And if you respond quick, no That's so good, bro. Yeah, I mean, I give you our new LO, availability is an actual strategy. Just to close deals. I mean, just- 100%, yeah. That's crazy. I already went through all of my pages and notes, so now I got to find new papers. All right, so let's keep rolling. All right, so non-negotiable for The team responsiveness. Now we can kind of shift more as Ralph as a human because of The fitness and because of The leadership and because of The ambition. What are some non-negotiables for you? Like what are some things that you hold yourself accountable to, wheTher it's rhythms, habits, Yeah, I mean, my highest and best skill in life is just being consistent. There's not a day that I won't get up in The morning and move and do something. Like, I will get up every single day and, you know, my exercise that may consist of stretching and walking, but I'm going to do something because it's what I need for my brain. So I do it every single day because I need The high from what I get from that to do The rest of The stuff. So non-negotiable for me is that, and PJ, I exercise during COVID, I exercise during, I was sick The last two days. I got up and I exercised. So it's a non-negotiable for me that I have to do it. If we're going on a trip, we're going on vacation with The family and The kids, I have to make sure that I have space to exercise. No matter where I am, I always get up. I always get up and move. And The older I get, The earlier I get up too. So I mean, even on a weekend, I'll be up by 6.30 at The latest, most likely. And I'm moving to do something. And listen, you're going to experience this and you're starting to experience it already. When you have kids, if you don't do things before They get up, you're not doing it. Yeah, you don't have a chance. So I have to do stuff in The morning. So that's my one And I played high school sports and I played college. So I always kind of did. I think I got really bad. I think this is a good transition, right? So in 2007, when I met Frank, I was working at this place, refinance.com, and There wasn't a lot of loans and The sales environment was a huge sales floor. And basically, The more deals you closed, The closer you got to The front of The room and The people at The front of The room got better That's smart, bro. That's some good psychology. It was great psychology but when i got There i was lonely in The totem pole so i was only in The back of The room so The system i figured out was if i get here seven o'clock in The morning nobody's here yet. So i would get There seven o'clock in The morning but The problem with that office is everybody stays at eight thirty if you walked out before eight o'clock you look like you were crazy so i would be There for twelve thirteen hours everything during that time period i got completely out of shape. I got fat, I got out of shape. And Frank will tell The story, but I had a breaking moment where he brought in hot dogs or something. I was in The front of The room at this point, we were all eating hot dogs. And I remember afterwards, I was like, that's it, I'm done. And I think since that day, and I was probably around 29, 28 or 29 at that time, I'd just been so hyper-focused on it. And Then at 30, five, my 35th birthday, I stopped drinking. So that How much of an impact and clarity and just overall fruits have you seen of a life with alcohol and no I mean, you know, I just I can be social without drinking. So I realized that after I stopped drinking. Right. But I think The biggest thing is I didn't like how it made me feel The next day. And what I what I realized after The fact was that I was off for like three or four days. So it was really, it was killing my kind of fitness. It was like The one thing I think that was missing to kind of get me to a next level. So when I, you know, like anything else, you get something out of your system, you don't really miss it so much anymore. So as soon as I stopped doing it, it wasn't like, and you know, now it's a question I probably have to answer most when I'm in social settings, like, oh, have a drink. Oh, why don't you I was never a big drinker. Like when That's you're a thousand percent right. And it seems to me that it's become popular over The Which is a good thing for humanity that that's The trend. I'll A hundred percent. So, but yeah, I mean, I think just, and since Then I've just been, and Then The old, you know, now The goal becomes, and you're always fighting age, right? Like, so I'm just, I'm fighting to stay The same levels I've been when I was younger, as I get older and I, and I challenged myself. That's always my challenge. I'm always I'm always fighting against me, right? So I did this last year. I do a workout on my birthday every single year, The same market every single year. And every single year, I'm trying to beat my number from The previous year. As I get older, that gets harder, right? I have to trade with purpose to get to that place, but All right. So interesting question. You have a say a 28-year-old loan officer and a 48-year-old loan officer. What advantages does The 28-year-old loan officer have and what disadvantages does Yeah. So that's a really, really good question. So I think The advantages that The 48-year-old has is that he's honed his craft, right? He understands The business. He was in The business when it was It was different business so he can understand The good and bad of what we have right now i think that's a major advantage for The younger person i'm gonna give you The same answer he doesn't have any previous was The business was before right so he wasn't part of subprime it wasn't part of all this nonsense that one around because a lot of The people that were. How do you see what is The time period never recover. And you know what, I can liken this to something you'll understand. I can like it to The time period during COVID. It was so easy to do business during COVID. When we came out of COVID, some people didn't adjust. And now it's They never recovered. And honestly, it was more mental than No, They really didn't. So I think you can understand it as far as those two. But I think being ignorant to how it was before is sometimes a complete game changer. And if you're younger, you grew up on technology, and you are more savvy when it comes to managing business through technology, where somebody who's older, it's a disadvantage for Them because They didn't grow up with it, and They're trying to learn as we go. So I think those are The major things I would say that are The biggest good and bad of those two ages. That's great feedback. All right. So I got anoTher transition. Who have you looked at for inspiration throughout your career? Like, who are The people that you keep coming back to? And you're like, yeah, These guys fire me up. I've learned from These guys, wheTher it's industry, wheTher it's personal development, like what's your hall of fame, personal development team That's a good question. I mean, I read every single day, so There's always books and There's always people I'm impressed with in books. Tim Grove's book, Relentless, is probably one of my go-tos. I think that was one of The books that changed my whole perception on reality because The book gives you The... It gives you The power to accept who you truly are. You know, when he spoke about Michael Jordan and train Michael Jordan and all These people, They just were really accepting and comfortable in Their own skin. So I think, I look to people who are comfortable in Their own skin. So I love Kobe and, you know, athletes are always an easy thing to go to for me, but it's always because of mindset. But if I look at those athletes, it's always really because They were comfortable in Their own skin more than anything else, right? So like, and I like that no matter what you're doing, that I equate a lot of my success And I think selling is a sport. I don't think it really gets talked about in that lens. I know a lot of sales guys relate to sports analogies, but I legitimately believe that selling is a competitive sport. I couldn't agree with you more. The best law officers and salespeople are competitive. Yeah, and this is, I always look to, and this is maybe just like anoTher producer mindset, but what's everybody producing in The country, not our team, not our branch. I always go to Scott's and I'm like, bro, somebody can do 300 million a year. That's The No, listen, I always look at that, that's a really great way to look at it, right? I look at it like, why is this guy doing better than me in The business? Well, he's utilizing his time better than I am, clearly, because he's using that same time I have Is using his time is using his time because There's nothing you know this business is you know and this is most business in my opinion but. Is nothing different than The next person to you is how are you utilizing The time you have a date to be successful what you're doing so like if somebody's doing three hundred million dollars a year it's because They and some of that is time on task to you don't mean like you're not gonna do that in your second year. But you know i think that as you grow in this business it's it's really Wow, bro, that's really good. How do you use your time? And Then what's your time on task? Because those two things togeTher really create The recipe for success. I've been telling The team, it's eiTher you're not showing up enough or You saying that is The best part of it, right? No matter what's going on in my day, no matter how stressful what's going on is happening. And kids and properties and stuff that comes up, right? We're going to talk about both. I got questions about properties. The job still has to get done, right? If I ignore The work today, it's still going to be here tomorrow, right? So I know I'm stressed out, but let me just get through it. Because if I don't get through it today, it's going to be more stressful tomorrow. So I think just showing up every single day The same way, All right. Could you touch on this for income? So this is a subjective question, but I'm curious from your perspective. For a full-time loan officer in 2026, what do you consider minimum volume, eiTher units or monthly volume, to be considered full-time and what should a target income I think you have to at least be doing a million dollars a month, which is in most places two to three deals. Right. And I think you have to be looking, you have to be making six figures at least, or what's The point. And if I'm being honest with you, so it's a hundred thousand plus, you know, at The very least, or no matter where you live, I just don't think The stress that this stress and The unpredictability and The variability of this job, you determine you you're controlled by a market that you can't control every single day, where rates are going to be and everything else. Like if you can't figure out a system that makes you at least that much money, Then probably All right. So what do you say to The people? Cause I'm sure you have people in your organization, not people online. What do you say to The group that calls Themselves full time, but as three months in a row where They've closed one deal, zero deal, one deal, zero deal. Like how do you process that conversation? And again, because The culture is so strong, what are those backroom conversations look like when you Yeah, I think I'll start with The backroom conversations and The backroom conversations are, you know, not just about our total production. If this person is only closing X amount of loans, how are They living every single month? How are They paying Their bills? If people can't earn enough money to pay for The things They need, how long are They going to be happy here and or not go someplace else? I always address it from that standpoint. Look, you're in a business where you have to be plugged in every single day. Thank you. I appreciate it. You have to be plugged in every single day and You have to earn, what's The minimum amount of money that you need to earn to do The things you want to do? If you're not doing that, Then this probably isn't your highest and best use. And Then what is your highest and best use? Are you just not getting to it? Do you need more help getting to it? But what's your minimum amount of money that you need to make to accomplish your goals? All right, well, how do we back into that number? Well, I need to make $80,000 to cover my expenses. OK, well, you need to close two loans a month to get to that number, whatever it is. It has to be an average loan amount of this. And Then I keep backing down. What do you have to do to get two applications? Well, I have to take eight. All right. How do you get eight applications? Well, I need 16 realtors. Okay. Well, how do we get you those 16 realtors to get There? You just keep backing it down, right? When I was on leads every single day, it was a simple game of math. I put up in front of my computer, to get The amount of applications I have to get to close The amount of deals I want to do, I have to take this many applications today. And When I can tell you that every month, if I did what I was supposed to do as far as applications, The closing numbers, wheTher I lost The deal or gained it, whatever it was, it always equal to be around The same. You know what I mean? It's really a numbers game at The end of The day. That's so good, bro. All right. That's great feedback. I 100% agree with you. All right. I got six questions left. All right. This is more of a fun industry one, and Then we'll get more into some intangibles. What do you guys say in this? And I'm actually curious if you've had These conversations. What do you say to somebody that's a broker that's considering becoming a banker? How do you handle this conversation? Yeah, that's a very prevalent conversation in today's market. And I'll tell you from my history, brokers do very, very well in down markets because The banks They're sending loans to are not busy and backed up yet. But if you get into The market that we all want to be in, when rates are low and we're ripping and rolling, you want to have access to people that you can make move because They work for The same company as you and They're moving towards The same cause. In a market like today, when it's slower, It's easier to be a broker, right? And be fine. When you lose control of your pipeline, because There's so much stuff out of your control, you're sending loans outside of your pipeline to anoTher bank to underwrite, it becomes very difficult to be a broker. So and also, I would challenge somebody to do this. Go find somebody that's doing your volume as a broker, and what you're doing as a bank, The way you're running your business, and see whose year to date is higher. And I would almost bet to tell you that your year to date is higher as far as income goes than a broker is, because They limit on how much money They can make per deal. So I think those are The two things I always point to. Yeah, being a broker right now may work, but you need a system that allows you to scale eventually, depending on how much business you go, and it's That's a great answer, bro. You know what's crazy? I mean, I may probably ask that question a hundred times. I've never heard it attached to good market and Yeah. And that's just from my experience, right? Like it's I mean, and that's so simple too. And you think about it, but it just doesn't, I don't hear that come up a lot. All right. So what, if you had to attribute, Maybe it's one thing, maybe it's three things. What allowed you guys to do what you did going from Cardinal to NAF? Like what? Not only to get everybody over, but to Then perform and Then I think you have to slowly but surely play The game, start to install all The things that made you successful at The oTher company. And this is a different company with different systems and all this stuff. So it takes a minute, right? You have to figure out who The decision makers are that you need, right? use those decision makers to help you put your systems in play show Them why your systems work better than anything else and by The way a lot of it is proving that you know what you're doing so a lot of it is at first like we have to produce so if we produce we show that we can produce because everybody comes in saying They're gonna do a hundred million speaks loud no pun intended. Yeah. We left Cardinal with between $70 and $80 million in volume per month by The time I remember we talked month one, and maybe you're about to say this, you We had 10 million on The books. I think we got to about 30 million within our first three months. We did 100 million last month, like 97 million last month. So that was a long, but we won The I mean, we were The fastest growing group in The company. We're The third largest group You're probably one of The fastest growing groups in The country. If you guys were IMB That's a lot of people's work into that. It took a lot to get There, but I just think that volume speaks and we know that we have to do business to get what we want. I Here's The beautiful thing about how a test becomes a testimony. Forget that you were even doing 70 to 80 million, because The story is Get me on a call with that as The story. I'm like, what are you guys doing? That's a good testimony. You're 100% right. I mean, it's true, bro. Month one is 10 million. Yeah, it's crazy. I think it's like- 21 months, That's awesome. I think we're always positive on where we're going to... We're realistic, but positive, right? I think we're always realistic, but Then Okay. All right. So I'm going to keep going rapid fire. What's your value prop when you're meeting with new recruits and you're going into The market? How do you guys package? What makes your group different and what's your value prop when you're talking with people? Actually, let me ask one more question. How much do you leverage your value prop as a group versus your banking partner's value I think from our purpose, we're pretty insulated. We're a self-sustaining company, so it's easy to sell The value prop of The company based off of what we do always. But The company we have here has some really good niches, and I use The niches to sell, for sure. They have some product niches that I use from a culture standpoint. But our value prop is always The same and always be The same. We want to help you build a business, not a pipeline. We don't want you to build a pipeline. We want you to help you build a real sustaining business that'll last The test of time. So our value prop is always The same. We're going to show you how to build a business. We're going to show you how to really run a P&L. We're going to show you how to really move your files fast. We're going to show you how to really build a brand. We're That's so good. Um, all right. So now this is like four random questions that have nothing to do with mortgages. Number one, that's definitely my purpose in life. I don't think it's even close to this point. It's The thing I enjoy most. It's The thing that I think about The most, even though I'm working all The time, I'm constantly thinking about what my kids are thinking and what They're doing and how to motivate Them. And it's a hard thing to figure out. By The way, you relive stuff from your own childhood The whole way through. So it's like, oh, this is why I did this. And this is why I was thinking that. And this is why I want to be different than that or The same or whatever. But I think it's number one priority for me always. lead from There, even to The point where if I'm doing anything work-related, it's really got to be before six or seven o'clock at night because I can't do anything after that because my kids always have things. I have FOMO for missing out on that stuff, so I don't want to miss any of it. What advice would you give to a top producer who I think we probably have one of The noisiest businesses where you could seem busy all The time and actually be getting absolutely nothing done. And some people do get a lot done. So what would your advice be to somebody that's a top producer that maybe just had Their first kid or Their kids are young and They're like, man, I want to be a good dad, but I also want to make money. How Yeah, I think you just have to adjust your hours and create boundaries around your hours a little bit. And again, you can always still communicate fast. Like if somebody calls you at eight o'clock at night and you're putting The baby to sleep, it's like, hey, just got something going on right now with my kid, but I know what you need. I will touch base with you at nine o'clock tomorrow morning, right? Like as long as you set The expectation, I think you can create boundaries around that. I think I can still be responsive. I'm always responsive. I'm always going to respond to text messages always. you may call me, I may be on a basketball court and you may hear it in The background, but if I'm not coaching, Then I will pick up The phone and I will say, Hey, I got it. Um, I'll do this, this and this. Let's make an appointment for tomorrow at 11 o'clock. So I am, my schedule is so tight. Like I'm on my schedule. Like, like everything is scheduled. Like if you don't, if I'm not scheduled, I can't do it. So I think that's The only thing I preach to people. Hey, just schedule time with me. So as long as I have my schedule, bro, I could do everything. You know what I mean? So I think it's just matter of like scheduling time. My calendar is tight. Yeah. I'm like, Just starting to get into that world where I'm realizing The calendar is king, especially as The amount of people that want to have access to you increases. If There's not an actual window just to be available, even if There's a call I want to take when my day is stacked, There's literally no window in The day No, you have to, you have to really set, set it up and you have to maximize every single minute of The time. And sometimes that feels crazy. Sometimes that feels like I'm rushing from place to place. And sometimes that, that can be overwhelming, but it's The only way to really operate. And again, your life, when you have kids becomes about Them and not about you anyway. So like, that's my sacrifice right now. And it'll be my sacrifice until They go to college or whatever it is. And Then I'll be upset that They're gone, but I'll have a lot more free. I'll have a lot of free time. It'll open So I guess because I only got three questions left, I'm gonna ask one more question on The fly. At what point do you determine, because this is a delicate balance, right? One of The keys to success is fast responsiveness. But Then The oTher thing with growing is The amount of people that have access to you increases. So how do you discern between, I'm just not going to reply to this versus I'm going to reply to everything. And like, how have you balanced availability as your network's grown and I put a value on time, my time. I really put a distinctive value on my time. And if I think that something is not going to be worth important time of mine, right, Then I'm not gonna respond, or I'm gonna write Them back that I don't have time for it right now in a nice way. And Then we can speak anoTher time, whatever it is. And some things you can't respond to at all. If you're somebody who's wasted my Yeah, at some point you stop getting a response. And that is my response, right? Because, you know, First time you do a shame on you, second time you do it to me, shame on me, right? So it's like, I'm not gonna let that continue to happen. So if you waste my time completely, Then I just stop responding. But I try to be responsive to everybody, but I do put an importance on my time. We're working togeTher and you call me, look, I got a huge issue at eight o'clock at night, I'm picking up The phone. And Like, you know, I mean, like, so it's like, it just depends on who and what it is, but The quality of who's reaching out and Their, and Their history of how They've handled your time in The past. Exactly. That's, that's exactly right. That's good, bro. That's a great answer. All right. So last three, what's your goal setting process? Like what's your rhythm been for setting goals? So that's a really, really good question. I try not to make huge long-term goals. If I'm being honest with you, a lot of my goals are short-term goals. Um, so, you know, cause I think it's so hard to predict stuff that's going to happen. Like, you know, Oh, we want to talk in 90 days, 30 days, six months, like, like, like I'll make goals by The quarter. A lot of times, like, like, this is what I want to do over The next four months. Or I want to be in, if I'm, if it's a running goal, right. I want to be back up to 10 miles at this kind of pace. by The end of February, right? So I'll make goals like that. What's your fastest pace been on a mile? For a mile? Yeah. Depends on what kind of race it is. A flat out mile, I've run sub 530. Sub And not in The last couple of years, but a 5K- I'm talking about The And I've run a 10K in I want to say my last time was 37. My last, last time it was like 3740 or something like that. Um, so, but yeah, I, I mean, um, I'm that I, so I was hurt. I hurt my foot. So I just got back to running like, like five weeks ago. So I'm back up to like five, I ran five miles today. So I'll back up to that. I don't really want to move more than a hair. I've never run a marathon. I saw you run a marathon, by The way. That's freaking amazing. Like great job. No strategy or game plan. That's The best way to do it. Cause it's so much, it's so mental. Like I want to run a, Um, but I, you know, you don't need to run a marathon for fitness. Like There's really nothing you get done in those last 13 miles that has anything to do with cardiovascular health No, it's very mental marathons, bro. I have a cousin that I work with now who runs 15, 16 mile races. And I just think he's out of his mind. But I also like to do oTher things. So I like to kind of hybrid train. So sometimes The running is a detriment to a lot of that. So I'm just trying to be in good shape at this point in my life. And I'm trying not to hurt myself. Yeah. I feel you. All right. So every time you talk, I have like anoTher five questions, but I'm just going to stick to The agenda so we can spend time. We'll do a part two sometime in The future. All right. So last two goals. So getting into investing finance pillar. I'll make it twofold just so we can cover it. So when was The first time you started intentionally investing? What's kind of been your experience with, you're earning ordinary income as a leader in The mortgage business, you're investing, how's that relationship been between income and assets? And Then when's The right time for somebody to start investing? So you could just go off on a little rant on Yeah. So I bought my first house at 23. I bought a multifamily at 23. And Then I made some mistakes in real estate. I bought condos in Florida right before The crash happened. And that was a big mistake. So I learned a lot of lessons. And Then what I usually do as far as this business goes, I've learned that I don't need a lot to live. A house is just a house, a car is just a car. I'm at a point in life where I don't need extravagant things. So whenever we're running and The business is making a lot of money, because you know this business is very cyclical. So when I'm at a high, I'm going to take that money, I'm going to put it someplace I know I can get to it. So real estate, in my opinion, for me, is always something that I can conservatively do that I know I can get to. I can always get to The money. I can cash out refinance, I can sell a property, whatever it is. So when we've gone through booms, I've bought a lot. And Then I managed through The down period. So right now we're in a little bit of a down period. I haven't bought a lot recently. I'm building a couple of properties right now. I'm trying to transition from being a landlord to really building more. So I'm working on a couple of those projects, but it's all learning experience. When is it The right time for somebody to start investing? I think whatever you whatever you can i think always i think like you know we don't have a pension in this business right we have a 401k or anoTher pension so i was always thinking over i've been thinking of retirement since i'm twenty one years old and now when i'm in a place where i have enough for retirement but i still need money for today. So I don't think it definitely becomes enough, but I think that's our safety net. The second you get a job where you can start putting money away, and it starts with your 401k. My first 401k is worth a lot of money today. I'm 25 years on a 401k. So I think immediately do that because it's pre-tax and you're not going to see The money anyway. It's money you're never going to loan, so you start doing that immediately. I think outside of that, There's so much information out There now, but I try to stay in my lane. I I'm not a day trader because I- This is anoTher broad question, but do you think every American has The ability to become a Yes, but it's all relative, right? It's all how low you can keep your expenses and how much you can save. So yes, 1,000%. It's going to take some people longer than oThers for sure, but it's all about how much you're willing to sacrifice to save because it really all comes down to that, right? am I willing on a daily basis not to have The sacrifice to save? Am I willing to give up Starbucks? Okay, well, that's anoTher $75 to$100 a week I can put away. It's $400 a month. It's $5,000 a year. That $5,000 a year in a fucking compound, right? So it's like, I just think when people... This is actually a good Odell Beckham was on a podcast, and I don't know if you read about it, but he said he was complaining that his $100 million contract really wasn't enough money, and he blew through it. And everyone's like, well, how do you blow through $100 million really easily if you look at it? Because after taxes and aging, that $100 million was probably $40 to $50 million. $40 to $50 million over five years is $10 million a year. What is his overhead? Does he have $100,000 to $200,000 a month in expenses? Does he have an entourage? It's easy. People don't understand it. It's all relative to what your lifestyle is. It's really easy to blow through The money depending on your lifestyle. And for guys that The money is going to be short-lived, There's got to be... I have a nephew who's He plays basketball for West Virginia this year. He transferred There. He was The number one three-point shooter in The country last year. He's number one right now, too. He got a lot of money to transfer, very close to seven figures to transfer and play basketball next year. he's a kid, he's 22 years old. You know what I mean? So like what happens Then? And I explained to him, I was like, this money isn't as much as you think it is. And it's got to last you The next seven years of your life until you figure out what you want to do if basketball doesn't work out, which is only 510. So basketball may not work out, right? So like, you know, so he's got to figure out how he's going to use that money to last. So, you know, it was a good exercise. It's like, hey, that money is, you're going to lose 30% of taxes, right? So it's gone. So The government takes it. And Then what are your expenses? So you have to, it's all about your lifestyle when it comes to investing too. How much am I willing to sacrifice for my There's so much gold in this. All right. So last question. I'll make it sales and related in general, not just mortgage, because I honestly think if you're excelling in mortgages, you can pretty much do about any sales job and probably have some success. Yeah, I would agree with that. All right. So I'm 25. I'm starting in sales today. I want to make 100,000. I don't know where to start. What's my initial playbook? What am I doing today to go from... I had some W-2 job where I was making 40 to 50 grand. I listened to this podcast. I'm ready to battle myself. I'm going all in. I I would go find somebody like you who's built it from zero over The last three, four years. And hey, what can I do? I just want to be around you every single day. I want to see how you operate. I want to see what you're doing. I want to learn from your mistakes. I think The biggest thing that younger people in any business are missing is that. The biggest learning, if They go just sit with you, and They come sit with you every single day and sit in front of your office, The three years of mistakes you made, They already got back. They got that time back. They're already ahead of The game. I think going to find The right person that's willing to mentor you by leading by example is The immediate thing I would try to do. By The way, it's a thing I didn't do, when I was young, I didn't go let somebody I think I was around good salespeople that were just naturally good salespeople. And I didn't have anybody mentoring me. And I made 1000 more Bro, that's so good. All right, so I could legitimately ask you questions all day long, but we already went through The list and had like six freestyle questions in There. So bro, thank you so much for your time. I know you already talked about how much you value your time. So it means a lot to me that you would take The time to do this. So if anybody wants to connect or follow with you, I think Instagram or LinkedIn are The two best platforms, right? So I will post links below when we drop The episode of how people can connect with you, follow you. So bro, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your wisdom and I appreciate you being on. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for joining today's episode of The Pillars of Purpose podcast. If today's episode was entertaining, educational, or if it was a source of encouragement, please share this with a friend, a colleague, a family member, or anyone that would benefit from this message. Please subscribe and stay tuned for future episodes. 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